Naoto Shirogane - General Discussion

[Ichipoo]

I know blargh posted this in Naoto's Dustloop section but I felt like sharing here as well for the sake of discussion and since seeing the Naoto section being dead makes me sad, but what can you do if the game isn't released on consoles for us baka gaijin to enjoy yet? XD

Anyway here you can see the Naoto player use Hamaon on an opponent. Now any player playing against Naoto will most likely block on reaction when they see her use it straight up, for those who are not aware of what it can do may not realize is that if you're caught blocking it, it basically gives Naoto a free Rock-Paper-Scissors type mixup. In the video, the Naoto player did 'Hamaon > All Out Attack' as the Labrys player was waking up and since the Labrys player failed to the block the AOA correctly, she ate Hamaon's remaining hits and was insta-killed.

Pretty interesting stuff, makes me wonder what else you mixup. Also, the fact that Hamaon's blinding light makes it hard to visually see the what mixup Naoto is going for is just icing on the already delicious cake that are Hamaon mixups. Anyway here's a couple of theoretical Hamaon mixups that might work.

-2A or 2A+B (low mixup)
-forward jump in into any jump attack that must be blocked high (high mixup)
-forward jump in into 2A or 2A+B (low mixup)
-forward jump in into AOA (high mixup)
-forward jump in into grab
-Grab
-Air Grab (on blocking airborne opponents)
-Megido trap cross up

Discuss?

[Bernkastel]

Old news sorry. . .

We discussed that in a thread in the discussion section, I don't think it ever carried over into this thread.

http://mayonakamidnight.com/showthre...ll=1#post11376


My thoughts stay the same, opponents should get a full body block during the animation of Hama if it was blocked. The other solution would be to make Naoto stationary during Hama but I wouldn't want that since it wouldn't allow Naoto to set things up while the opponent is blocking.

[Ichipoo]

Well damn, don't I feel silly. XD

[Grayfox]

Well it's new to me. Pretty intresting stuff. I need to start catching up before I fall behind even more.

[Ichipoo]

My thoughts stay the same, opponents should get a full body block during the animation of Hama if it was blocked. The other solution would be to make Naoto stationary during Hama but I wouldn't want that since it wouldn't allow Naoto to set things up while the opponent is blocking.

I think this is the best "fix" for this. At least the opponent won't get IK'd for just one wrong guess and the Naoto player still has momentum and can apply pressure.

[lolshack]

Well it's new to me. Pretty intresting stuff. I need to start catching up before I fall behind even more.

So true, haha. Off for few weeks, then suddenly, non-IK Mudoon for traps meta.

Can see the appeal of that though. The idea of free traps is ungodly epic.

[Gordout]

Old news sorry. . .

We discussed that in a thread in the discussion section, I don't think it ever carried over into this thread.

http://mayonakamidnight.com/showthre...ll=1#post11376


My thoughts stay the same, opponents should get a full body block during the animation of Hama if it was blocked. The other solution would be to make Naoto stationary during Hama but I wouldn't want that since it wouldn't allow Naoto to set things up while the opponent is blocking.

I think the whole point of the move is to force the opponent to block a mixup in order to stay alive though. When you think about it, there's several reasons why you get hit by instant kills in the first place.

-You allowed yourself to get hit by several moves that reduce your fatal counter.
-In the case of Mudo, you most likely guessed wrong on a mixup or got anti-air'd. It's too slow to just randomly get hit by it raw.

Now, looking at Hama, it's simply far too projected a move to get hit by it raw as well. In the video of the post you linked, the Chie ran at Naoto with nothing to back her up, no meteors, nothing. So when the Naoto player throws out the Hama and lands the following mixup, it's a well deserved win/loss on both sides. The Chie player didn't recognize that Hama was dangerous, didn't attempt to avoid it or restrict its use, and payed. The situation shouldn't have come up to begin with, is really the lesson to be learned there.

I really think it was designed to be that way. Since Naoto has to take you down to 0, then land a setup in order to force you to block the move, and then land a mixup in order to seal the deal, it seems more or less fair. No worse than Mudo at least, it's the same principle for both.

If anything, if a nerf really had to be put down, it should be more initial Fate in the counter.

[Tong]

My thoughts stay the same, opponents should get a full body block during the animation of Hama if it was blocked.

That's like asking for Kokushii Musou (Litchi's DD) to get full body block... defeats the purpose of the move.

[Bernkastel]

Problems with that:

• The Light can make it hard to see Naoto in some of her colour pallets
• Players will start with a minimum of 7 ticks in round 2
• Makes Naoto into a insta~kill only character
• Remove all skill needed to actually land a insta~kill
• Once tick is 0 it means game over coz even if the player plays as safe as possible they will still get insta~killed

[Gordout]

Problems with that:

• The Light can make it hard to see Naoto in some of her colour pallets
• Players will start with a minimum of 7 ticks in round 2
• Makes Naoto into a insta~kill only character
• Remove all skill needed to actually land a insta~kill
• Once tick is 0 it means game over coz even if the player plays as safe as possible they will still get insta~killed

I don't agree at all.

-You don't need to see a mixup in order to deal with it. There are tons of games where you can cover your mixup up with mist, flashy lights, etc. It's nothing new to fighting games.

-Like I said, if anything needs to be done perhaps adding more to the counter is the proper nerf. Even then I think she's fine.

-She still has to land hits on you to do the kill, it's the same as doing damage. And I think they want you to use the IK, otherwise she wouldn't have it.

-The Hama isn't hard to hit them with once you've activated it, but it's not as easy as just doing it, you need to find a way to land it, and anyone that actually understands how her IKs work isn't going to just sit there and let you do it.

-Playing safe is how you don't get hit by insta-kill moves. Like my previous example, the Chie player simply ran up to Naoto without recognizing the danger of Hama, and allowed himself to be an easy target. Nothing was done to prevent the usage of the move, even though throwing out agneyastra would be enough to lock down and get a free chance to do damage. In any case it's the fault of the player if they allow themselves to get hit by moves that put their fate down to 0, so if they want to keep living they need to keep in mind what the opponent's options are.

Even though having instant kills may seem broken at first, I think Naoto is more or less fair. She has pretty poor defensive options save for her R-action and her awakening super, And her health is also extremely low. That means she's putting pretty much everything on her ability to keep the opponent out and attempt to kill them through a normal KO or an IK, and it doesn't put her above the rules of fighting games. Like any other character, you can simply block correctly, tech grabs properly, etc etc. and you beat her. Nevermind the fact that characters like Chie get a free way in on her when they have meter. I think the character's good, but not mindlessly easy to play like some of the characters above her in the tiers.